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    Haplogroup J2b

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    Trojet

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    Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:09 pm

    This thread will be about haplogroup J2b in general. The highest frequencies of this haplogroup in the world are observed in the Albanian speaking areas, representing anywhere from 15%-23% of the Albanian Y chromosome. The subclades that are found in Albanians belong almost exclusively downstream of J2b2-L283 or J2b2a (considered the oldest European J2) which is a subclade of J2b2-M241. J2b2-M241 is thought to have originated somewhere in Anatolia in the Mesolithic. The current hypothesis is that sometime in the early Neolithic, a group of these people got caught up in a Neolithic wave with one group migrating towards the Balkans defined by SNP J2b2-L283, and the other group migrating towards South Asia defined by SNP J2b2-Z2432, therefore according to this, the J2b2 found in South Asia is not a result of Alexander the Great troops from the Balkans as has been theorized before. According to YFull http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/, the split happened by 9700 years ago. It is thought that sometime by the Late Neolithic this haplogroup (J2b2-L283 or J2b2a) was already in the Balkans where it diversified into further subclades and spread out in the rest of Europe in different waves starting in the Chalcolithic, although some people propose that this haplogroup spread in the British Isles and other parts of Europe with the Roman soldiers recruited from the Balkans. Thus far, we have three Albanians who have done SNP testing downstream of J2b2-L283 (J2b2a) that I know of. A Kosovar Albanian belongs to J2b2-Z638*, an Albanian from Macedonia (me) belong to J2b2-Z1296*, and an anonymous sample from a study in Albania belongs to J2b2-Z1297*. This would indicate that so far we are showing diversity, as these SNPs according to YFull have separated 3800-4300 years ago.

    The latest research tree from Haplogroup J2 Admin: www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1
    The latest YFull Tree: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

    This is a simplified tree starting with J2b2-M241 and its main subclades:


    Frequency distribution according to Eupedia:


    Last edited by Trojet on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:12 am; edited 7 times in total
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:10 pm

    Very interesting, Trojet, how we have such a diversity on these old clades of J2b, and also R1b. I assume it should be very similar with E-V13 too, even though I have seen studies mention that we don't.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:15 am

    Admin wrote:Very interesting, Trojet, how we have such a diversity on these old clades of J2b, and also R1b. I assume it should be very similar with E-V13 too, even though I have seen studies mention that we don't.

    Yea, a lot of our R1b seems to belong to R1b>M269>L23>Z2103 which is usually referred as the Balkan.  I have also seen some of our R1b being L23 negative, so yea it does seem like we have different clades of R1b.

    Yes, I would guess E-V13 should show similar diversity. E-V13 was most likely born in the Balkans and has been in our areas since probably the Neolithic. I too have read an article of Dienekes claiming that our E-V13 is low diversity. Although his math is right, his method is wrong. He is using Y-STR 12 markers which doesn't tell you much about diversity, besides just predicting a haplogroup. I don't claim to be an expert on this, but it's pretty clear he is showing Greek nationalistic bias in that article. Someone needs at least 37 marker haplotypes to get an idea about diversity, but the best way is to test subclades (SNPs) of a haplogroup.  I have seen some Albanians belong to SNP CTS9320 of E-V13, but even that SNP formed 3900 years ago according to YFull. To have a better idea about diversity, we need people to test for subclades of a haplogroup. National Geographic is coming up with a new Geno chip called Geno 2.0 Next Generation in about a month which should test for most of the discovered Y-SNPs of haplogroups, also much better autosomal and mtDNA. Hopefully we get some Albos to take that test:
    http://mshop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/product/genographic-2.0-kits/geno-2.0-next-generation-genographic-project-participation-and-dna-ancestry-kit;jsessionid=6585C8977C4F67A92BCD6CC9A5BE3F85?mobile&_requestid=3884679]mshop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/product/genographic-2.0-kits/geno-2.0-next-generation-genographic-project-participation-and-dna-ancestry-kit;jsessionid=6585C8977C4F67A92BCD6CC9A5BE3F85?mobile&_requestid=3884679
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:34 pm

    Are you saying National Geographic is going to be better to test with? For now, I think ftdna is much better considering their database.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:20 pm

    Admin wrote:Are you saying National Geographic is going to be better to test with? For now, I think ftdna is much better considering their database.

    Yea I agree, if someone is only interested just for Y-DNA, FTDNA is the better choice as you have the option to refine your branch as deep as you want to. Although their Y-STR tests sometimes might not be enough to get you deep into the haplotree if someone doesn't have matches, in that case someone needs to test for SNPs to get deep in the haplotree.

    With Geno 2.0 Next Gen you're only limited with the Y-SNPs they cover on their chip, but it should still cover much more Y-SNPs than the old Geno 2.0 (I'm hearing it will jump from 12k Y-SNPs to around 20k) as well as give you better autosomal and mtDNA.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:27 pm

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:Are you saying National Geographic is going to be better to test with? For now, I think ftdna is much better considering their database.

    Yea I agree, if someone is only interested just for Y-DNA, FTDNA is the better choice as you have the option to refine your branch as deep as you want to. Although their Y-STR tests sometimes might not be enough to get you deep into the haplotree if someone doesn't have matches, in that case someone needs to test for SNPs to get deep in the haplotree.

    With Geno 2.0 Next Gen you're only limited with the Y-SNPs they cover on their chip, but it should still cover much more Y-SNPs than the old Geno 2.0 as well as give you better autosomal and mtDNA.


    Well ftdna is still expanding so if you don't have a match now doesn't mean much, because you most likely will have in the future. Anyways, this of course depends on what you are interested in. I for example am more into y-dna and our Clan project. Geno to me seems very similar to 23andme and tribecode.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:38 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:Are you saying National Geographic is going to be better to test with? For now, I think ftdna is much better considering their database.

    Yea I agree, if someone is only interested just for Y-DNA, FTDNA is the better choice as you have the option to refine your branch as deep as you want to. Although their Y-STR tests sometimes might not be enough to get you deep into the haplotree if someone doesn't have matches, in that case someone needs to test for SNPs to get deep in the haplotree.

    With Geno 2.0 Next Gen you're only limited with the Y-SNPs they cover on their chip, but it should still cover much more Y-SNPs than the old Geno 2.0 as well as give you better autosomal and mtDNA.


    Well ftdna is still expanding so if you don't have a match now doesn't mean much, because you most likely will have in the future. Anyways,  this of course depends on what you are interested in. I for example am more into y-dna and our Clan project. Geno  to me seems very similar to 23andme and tribecode.

    True. I'm mainly interested in Y-DNA as well. And having people test with FTDNA, they can also join our project and have them in our database. Also the clan project should be much more informative, if any clan members take at least a Y-STR 37 test, as it can be useful for matching purposes for Clans within the same haplogroup.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:09 pm

    Trojet wrote:

    True. I'm mainly interested in Y-DNA as well. And having people test with FTDNA, they can also join our project and have them in our database. Also the clan project should be much more informative, if any clan members take at least a Y-STR 37 test, as it can be useful for matching purposes for Clans within the same haplogroup.
    Very true. Which test did you purchase the 37 or the 67, and what else have you tested so far? It's not a bad idea if you post your results since you belong to this y-dna.


    Last edited by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:29 pm

    Admin wrote:Very true. Which test did you purchase the 37 or the 67, and what else have tested so far? It's not a bad idea if you post your results since you belong to this y-dna.
    Good idea. I ordered the Y-STR 37 marker test. These are my 37 STR values: 12 24 15 10 14-17 11 15 12 12 10 28 16 8-9 11 11 27 16 19 29 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14 17 16 34-37 11 9
    When I got my results, FTDNA only predicted me as J2, but based on matches I knew I was J2b2-L283 (European J2b2). So after joining the J2 haplogroup project on FTDNA the admin predicted me a step below and thought that I'm probably J2b2-Z1296 but wasn't sure since I had no close matches. I wanted to dig in as deep as I can, so I tested SNP Z1296 and it came out positive, and then tested Z1297 and came out negative. So that means I form an undiscovered branch below J2b2-Z1296 and the only way to discover more SNPs below this branch is to do a Big Y test or wait for any close matches in the future to do so. I'll pass on the BigY for now, $500 test lol. There is a person from Sicily likely Arberesh (haven't been able to confirm this) who also belongs to J2b2-Z1296* and has done the BigY, but we are not matching closely based on Y-STR 37. So we both might form 2 different branches below Z1296 which formed 4300 years ago according to YFULL.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:06 pm

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:Very true. Which test did you purchase the 37 or the 67, and what else have tested so far? It's not a bad idea if you post your results since you belong to this y-dna.
    Good idea. I ordered the Y-STR 37 marker test. These are my 37 STR values: 12 24 15 10 14-17 11 15 12 12 10 28 16 8-9 11 11 27 16 19 29 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14 17 16 34-37 11 9
    When I got my results, FTDNA only predicted me as J2, but based on matches I knew I was J2b2-L283 (European J2b2). So after joining the J2 haplogroup project on FTDNA the admin predicted me a step below and thought that I'm probably J2b2-Z1296 but wasn't sure since I had no close matches. I wanted to dig in as deep as I can, so I tested SNP Z1296 and it came out positive, and then tested Z1297 and came out negative. So that means I form an undiscovered branch below J2b2-Z1296 and the only way to discover more SNPs below this branch is to do a Big Y test or wait for any close matches in the future to do so. I'll pass on the BigY for now, $500 test lol. There is a person from Sicily likely Arberesh (haven't been able to confirm this) who also belongs to J2b2-Z1296* and has done the BigY, but we are not matching closely based on Y-STR 37. So we both might form 2 different branches below Z1296 which formed 4300 years ago according to YFULL.
    Interesting stuff! J2b2 not common in Italian peninsula, or at least the subclade you belong to, since you're assuming he is of Arberesh decent? Also, do you happen to have the results of the two Albo's you mentioned in your first post?
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:07 pm

    Admin wrote:Interesting stuff! J2b2 not common in Italian peninsula, or at least the subclade you belong to, since you're assuming he is of Arberesh decent? Also, do you happen to have the results of the two Albo's you mentioned in your first post?

    I made this spreadsheet some time ago of the Albanian J2b2 samples I have gathered so far from various projects on FTDNA. The sample from Albania I mentioned that belongs to J2b2-Z1297* is from an anonymous study that the J2 admin posted on a blog, so I don't have his STRs. The Kosovar sample (J2b2-Z638*) is actually from Veliki Trnovac, Presheva Valley.


    Last edited by Trojet on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:34 pm

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:Interesting stuff! J2b2 not common in Italian peninsula, or at least the subclade you belong to, since you're assuming he is of Arberesh decent? Also, do you happen to have the results of the two Albo's you mentioned in your first post?

    I made this spreadsheet some time ago of the Albanian J2b2 samples I have gathered so far from various projects on FTDNA. The sample from Albania I mentioned that belongs to J2b2-Z1297* is from an anonymous study that the J2 admin posted on a blog, so I don't have his STRs. The Kosovar sample (J2b2-Z638*) is actually from Veliki Trnovac, Presheva Valley.
    That's awesome. I wonder in what cluster our Hoti, one of the Hoti is actually tested at ftdna which is in your Excel worksheet but no SNP testing, Gruda, Berisha and Krasniqi that have tested at 23andme fall in. Hope one of these days we can get them tested at ftdna. It will be fantastic to have all of that data. 

    Duskfall from TA is J2b2 too, and he is from Dibra, but he only tested at 23andme.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:45 pm

    Admin wrote:That's awesome. I wonder in what cluster our Hoti, Gruda, Berisha and Krasniqi that have tested at 23andme fall in. Hope one of these days we can get them tested at ftdna. It will be fantastic to have all of that data. 

    Duskfall from TA is J2b2 too, and he is from Dibra, but he only tested at 23andme.

    Cool! This is why it's better to test at FTDNA. For example, in the future if I match a J2b2 sample from a northern tribe or Dibra area closely GD of 4 or less on 37 markers, then I will know that my fis probably comes from that tribe or area. But so far I don't match anyone closer than the Sicily (Arberesh?) person which is still at GD of 6, so not really a match. It would be cool if Duskfall decides to do a Y-STR 37 and see if I match him since I'm from the Kercova area and him Dibra. My guess would be that we don't match closely, but you never know.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:24 am

    Admin wrote:I wonder in what cluster our Hoti, one of the Hoti is actually tested at ftdna which is in your Excel worksheet but no SNP testing

    I'm guessing Hoti is kit 338980.  If that's the case, me and him have a GD of 7 on 37 markers. Based on this, our TMRCA should be between 1500-2000 years ago. My best guess is that he belongs in J2b2-Z1296* too, since TMRCA of this SNP is 3800 years old. However, STRs sometimes can be misleading in predicting the most recent SNP, especially in J2b2 (unless we were matching very closely), so without SNP testing it's just a best guess for now.

    BTW, I have also collected results of Albos E-V13 and R1b from various projects on FTDNA.
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Admin on Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:18 am

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:I wonder in what cluster our Hoti, one of the Hoti is actually tested at ftdna which is in your Excel worksheet but no SNP testing

    I'm guessing Hoti is kit 338980.  If that's the case, me and him have a GD of 7 on 37 markers. Based on this, our TMRCA should be between 1500-2000 years ago. My best guess is that he belongs in J2b2-Z1296* too, since TMRCA of this SNP is 3800 years old. However, STRs sometimes can be misleading in predicting the most recent SNP, especially in J2b2 (unless we were matching very closely), so without SNP testing it's just a best guess for now.

    BTW, I have also collected results of Albos E-V13 and R1b from various projects on FTDNA.

    He is the Gjelaj example we have on our Clan project, if I am not mistaken (kuqezi can confirm).

    Cool bro, can you open a thread for each then, like you have done here for J2b?
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    Re: Haplogroup J2b

    Post by Trojet on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:48 am

    Admin wrote:Cool bro, can you open a thread for each then, like you have done here for J2b?

    Ok. Will do, and I'll post the results in the appropriate threads when I get a chance.

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