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    Haplogroup R1b

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    Trojet

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    Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:26 am

    This thread will be regarding R1b in general and more specifically the subclades that are found among Albanians. The highest frequencies in the world are observed in western Europe reaching as much as 80% in some countries such as France, England, Ireland. The current hypothesis is that R1b generally spread with the expansion of Indo-Europeans in the early Bronze Age from the steppes. This would also fit with the Kurgan hypothesis of the Indo-European languages. According to some theories, the expansion seems to have generally followed the Danube river basin and early in the expansion it seems like a subclade of R1b-L23 defined by SNP Z2103 stayed or descended to the Balkans where we presently find most of the Albanian R1b (although we also have some samples who are L23 negative), while a group of R1b people defined by SNP L51 continued towards central and western Europe.
    The latest YFull tree:
    http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M269/

    This is a migration hypothesis according to Eupedia:


    This is a tree of R1b-M269 (ht35 P312- U106-)


    Last edited by Trojet on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:19 am; edited 5 times in total
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:37 am

    Good job bro! Out of the examples you have gathered from ftdna only Gashi from Klina is special, I guess Wink Do you happen to know if there is another sample/example like him at ftdna ?
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:36 pm

    Admin wrote:Good job bro! Out of the examples you have gathered from ftdna only Gashi  from Klina is special, I guess Wink Do you happen to know if there is another sample/example like him at ftdna ?

    Yes. I see he is grouped in that specific subclade, R1b-PF7562 in that project. There is other samples in that group, a couple from Italy, one from Bulgaria, one from Greece, and some others scattered around Europe. He is not matching any of them, he actually seems pretty distant to all of them, at least those that have joined that project. I have seen a few other R1b Albanians with similar STR values as him from a study, but it's only 17 markers, so I assume they too belong to that subclade. Nonetheless, our R1b seems to be mostly L23>Z2103>CTS9219.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:16 pm

    Interesting paper on M269: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044


    Ftdna claims for L23* to have come with farmers:


    R1b-L23* (old R1b1a2a1: L23+ L150+ L51-)
    R1b-L23* is relatively frequent in the Middle East (~10% in  Turkey, Iran, Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Jews and Albania) and dominant haplogroup of Armenians (20-30%) – it is thus called the “Armenian Modal Haplotype”. It is also found on the Balkans, where it has moved around 7000-8000 years ago, with early farmers. At the end of 2010, new SNPs were found in this group (L277, L405) which are not private and need further research to see how they split the L23* clade. People who are M269+ L23+ L51- P310- may test these SNPs with the chance of being positive.https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:08 pm

    Admin wrote:Interesting paper on M269: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044


    Ftdna claims for L23* to have come with farmers:


    R1b-L23* (old R1b1a2a1: L23+ L150+ L51-)
    R1b-L23* is relatively frequent in the Middle East (~10% in  Turkey, Iran, Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Jews and Albania) and dominant haplogroup of Armenians (20-30%) – it is thus called the “Armenian Modal Haplotype”. It is also found on the Balkans, where it has moved around 7000-8000 years ago, with early farmers. At the end of 2010, new SNPs were found in this group (L277, L405) which are not private and need further research to see how they split the L23* clade. People who are M269+ L23+ L51- P310- may test these SNPs with the chance of being positive.https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

    Yes. You are right, that's another very plausible theory that has been proposed about R1b coming in the Neolithic. Our project's main focus should be about what haplogroups and subclades of haplogroups we are made of and how our Albanian Bloodlines are related to each other, and not about migration hypothesis of different haplogroups, we don't want to send the wrong message here (although we can discuss them from time to time). At the end of the day, autosomally we are all a mixture of these haplogroups that are found among us, but only one shows up on the Y chromosome. I kind of got too carried away with these migration theories about our haplogroups, so I will be editing some info in the beginning of the threads. What do you think?
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:36 pm

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:Interesting paper on M269: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044


    Ftdna claims for L23* to have come with farmers:


    R1b-L23* (old R1b1a2a1: L23+ L150+ L51-)
    R1b-L23* is relatively frequent in the Middle East (~10% in  Turkey, Iran, Caucasus, Iraq, Syria, Jews and Albania) and dominant haplogroup of Armenians (20-30%) – it is thus called the “Armenian Modal Haplotype”. It is also found on the Balkans, where it has moved around 7000-8000 years ago, with early farmers. At the end of 2010, new SNPs were found in this group (L277, L405) which are not private and need further research to see how they split the L23* clade. People who are M269+ L23+ L51- P310- may test these SNPs with the chance of being positive.https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

    Yes. You are right, that's another very plausible theory that has been proposed about R1b coming in the Neolithic. Our project's main focus should be about what haplogroups and subclades of haplogroups we are made of and how our Albanian Bloodlines are related to each other, and not about migration hypothesis of different haplogroups, we don't want to send the wrong message here (although we can discuss them from time to time). At the end of the day, autosomally we are all a mixture of these haplogroups that are found among us, but only one shows up on the Y chromosome. I kind of got too carried away with these migration theories about our haplogroups, so I will be editing some info in the beginning of the threads. What do you think?
    I brought it up what ftdna is stating because the study I linked is actually not able to say if such is the case. I wonder where is ftdna relying that they are such confident? I agree, but since it's R1b thread a bit of discussion doesn't hurt, to my opinion. No need for editing.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:40 pm

    Admin wrote:I brought it up what ftdna is stating because the study I linked is actually not able to say if such is the case. I wonder where is ftdna relying that they are such confident? I agree, but since it's R1b thread a bit of discussion doesn't hurt, to my opinion. No need for editing.

    Yea, it looks like that link is coming from the admin of haplogroup R1b at FTDNA. IMO, we need ancient Y-DNA, especially from the south Balkans and west Anatolia, which we don't have any, to have a better idea about ancient migrations.
    I don't know if you ever read this from a couple of months ago. R1b found in Vucedol from 2,870-2,580 BC which I think is a proto Illyrian culture. Too bad they didn't test for downstream SNPs to see whether it falls below L23 "Balkan Cluster":
    www.eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/r1b-from-vucedol-period-hungary.html?m=1
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:01 pm

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:I brought it up what ftdna is stating because the study I linked is actually not able to say if such is the case. I wonder where is ftdna relying that they are such confident? I agree, but since it's R1b thread a bit of discussion doesn't hurt, to my opinion. No need for editing.

    Yea, it looks like that link is coming from the admin of haplogroup R1b at FTDNA. IMO, we need ancient Y-DNA, especially from the south Balkans and west Anatolia, which we don't have any, to have a better idea about ancient migrations.
    I don't know if you ever read this from a couple of months ago. R1b found in Vucedol from 2,870-2,580 BC which I think is a proto Illyrian culture. Too bad they didn't test for downstream SNPs to see whether it falls below L23 "Balkan Cluster":
    www.eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/r1b-from-vucedol-period-hungary.html?m=1
    Who is the admin there, is he a member at anthrogenica? Exactly, R1b to be connected to farmers, especially that early doesn't make sense to me, specifically for the M269 or the downstream L23. Yeah I have seen it and wished they tested further downstream, but I bet it's the Balkan Cluster. This though puts the Indo-European theory down the drain to my opinion, at least for Albanian-Greek languages. I also wished they tested further the J2 from Sopot/Lengyel. Any idea or opinion on it?
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:02 am

    Admin wrote:
    Who is the admin there, is he a member at anthrogenica? Exactly, R1b to be connected to farmers, especially that early doesn't make sense to me, specifically for the M269 or the downstream L23. Yeah I have seen it and wished they tested further downstream, but I bet it's the Balkan Cluster. This though puts the Indo-European theory down the drain to my opinion, at least for Albanian-Greek languages. I also wished they tested further the J2 from Sopot/Lengyel. Any idea or opinion on it?

    The R1b admin at FTDNA is Michael Walsh. It looks like he just linked different studies of R1b over the years at FTDNA page. I'm almost certain he is Mikewww at Anthrogenica.

    Regarding those ancient samples, it's unfortunate because they only tested upstream SNPs of haplogroups. Hopefully a paper is on the works with more detailed info or something. In addition to R1b Vucedol, and J2 Sopot and Lengyel there is two E-M78 in Sopot and Lengyel as well almost certainly E-V13, but again no downstream test to confirm. This is what the FTDNA J2 admin ChrisR posted at Anthrogenica regarding the J2's:
    Without further evidence I strongly suspect those two are some sublineage of J2b-L283. YFull estimates L283 to have diversified 9800 ybp (because of missing L283* sequences the age could be younger) and very likely L283 derived men were in Europe well before Bronze Age. The diversity in South-Eastern Europe since a long time indicates L283 (or a sublineage) to be the "oldest" European J2.
    www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4804-Szecsenyi-Nagy-quot-Neolithic-population-history-in-the-western-Carpathian-Basin-quot/page7
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:43 pm

    Trojet wrote:

    The R1b admin at FTDNA is Michael Walsh. It looks like he just linked different studies of R1b over the years at FTDNA page. I'm almost certain he is Mikewww at Anthrogenica.

    Regarding those ancient samples, it's unfortunate because they only tested upstream SNPs of haplogroups. Hopefully a paper is on the works with more detailed info or something. In addition to R1b Vucedol, and J2 Sopot and Lengyel there is two E-M78 in Sopot and Lengyel as well almost certainly E-V13, but again no downstream test to confirm. This is what the FTDNA J2 admin ChrisR posted at Anthrogenica regarding the J2's:
    Without further evidence I strongly suspect those two are some sublineage of J2b-L283. YFull estimates L283 to have diversified 9800 ybp (because of missing L283* sequences the age could be younger) and very likely L283 derived men were in Europe well before Bronze Age. The diversity in South-Eastern Europe since a long time indicates L283 (or a sublineage) to be the "oldest" European J2.
    www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4804-Szecsenyi-Nagy-quot-Neolithic-population-history-in-the-western-Carpathian-Basin-quot/page7
    Yeah it looks like it's him. I think so too, they got to be E-V13. Thanks for linking me to that thread, good discussions there. 

    Btw, I just decided to go through my SNP's at 23andme and I am most definitely L23-, no call on rs9785971, but I am L49+ though. Perhaps I am going to fall under the same cluster as Gashi from Qabiq. There is also a Greek kit 274480 that is also L49+ like me. The Jewish Cluster are L49- from what I remember, correct ?

    From what I have read 23andme are quite reliable on predicting these two.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:51 pm

    Admin wrote: 
    Btw, I just decided to go through my SNP's at 23andme and I am most definitely L23-, no call on [size=43]rs9785971[/size], but I am L49+ though. Perhaps I am going to fall under the same cluster as Gashi from Qabiq. There is also a Greek kit 274480 that is also L49+ like me. The Jewish Cluster are L49- from what I remember, correct ?

    From what I have read 23andme are quite reliable on predicting these two.

    Interesting. 23andme actually tests SNPs, so if you have a call on a SNP you are either positive or negative depending on the call, but of course the SNPs they check are too little. Yes you are right RS9785971 is for L23, so im guessing you have no A or G below that value (A would be positive, G negative). I was actually just reading a thread on anthrogenica and it seems like there are some other people who got no call on this SNP through 23andme, and some turned out L23+ some negative. Your haplogroup assignment by them (R1b1b2a) is as if you are positive for L23, but the actual SNP is no call, so it would be interesting when you get your results from FTDNA.

    BTW, I see R1b admins suggest 67 markers, but I would say only upgrade if you need to after getting results. You can still upgrade if you wanted to while the coupon Swede2015 works, today is the last day up to you. Like I said STR markers will not test for SNPs only will tell you who you cluster with, more markers more confidence of the matches, so the extra $ for 67 markers, you can use for checking SNPs if needed in my opinion. This company based in Germany www.yseq.com tests SNPs for $17.50 each that's where I checked my SNPs only needed to check 3 and got to to my terminal (most recent) SNP, FTDNA $39 for comparison.

    I see L49 is at the same level as M269, so anyone who is M269 should be positive for L49 as well.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:02 pm

    Trojet wrote:


    Interesting. 23andme actually tests SNPs, so if you have a call on a SNP you are either positive or negative depending on the call, but of course the SNPs they check are too little. Yes you are right RS9785971 is for L23, so im guessing you have no A or G below that value (A would be positive, G negative). I was actually just reading a thread on anthrogenica and it seems like there are some other people who got no call on this SNP through 23andme, and some turned out L23+ some negative. Your haplogroup assignment by them (R1b1b2a) is as if you are positive for L23, but the actual SNP is no call, so it would be interesting when you get your results from FTDNA.

    BTW, I see R1b admins suggest 67 markers, but I would say only upgrade if you need to after getting results. You can still upgrade if you wanted to while the coupon Swede2015 works, today is the last day up to you. Like I said STR markers will not test for SNPs only will tell you who you cluster with, more markers more confidence of the matches, so the extra $ for 67 markers, you can use for checking SNPs if needed in my opinion. This company based in Germany www.yseq.com tests SNPs for $17.50 each that's where I checked my SNPs only needed to check 3 and got to to my terminal (most recent) SNP, FTDNA $39 for comparison.

    I see L49 is at the same level as M269, so anyone who is M269 should be positive for L49 as well.
    They confuse the hell out of you though with all A's and G's, but when I actually try to search that specific SNP for L23, I get "no gene found". I usually try to stay away from it, but I was just playing around with it today lol


    Could I upgrade to 67 right now, and how much more would it cost me?
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:05 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:


    Interesting. 23andme actually tests SNPs, so if you have a call on a SNP you are either positive or negative depending on the call, but of course the SNPs they check are too little. Yes you are right RS9785971 is for L23, so im guessing you have no A or G below that value (A would be positive, G negative). I was actually just reading a thread on anthrogenica and it seems like there are some other people who got no call on this SNP through 23andme, and some turned out L23+ some negative. Your haplogroup assignment by them (R1b1b2a) is as if you are positive for L23, but the actual SNP is no call, so it would be interesting when you get your results from FTDNA.

    BTW, I see R1b admins suggest 67 markers, but I would say only upgrade if you need to after getting results. You can still upgrade if you wanted to while the coupon Swede2015 works, today is the last day up to you. Like I said STR markers will not test for SNPs only will tell you who you cluster with, more markers more confidence of the matches, so the extra $ for 67 markers, you can use for checking SNPs if needed in my opinion. This company based in Germany www.yseq.com tests SNPs for $17.50 each that's where I checked my SNPs only needed to check 3 and got to to my terminal (most recent) SNP, FTDNA $39 for comparison.

    I see L49 is at the same level as M269, so anyone who is M269 should be positive for L49 as well.
    They confuse the hell out of you though with all A's and G's, but when I actually try to search that specific SNP for L23, I get "no gene found". I usually try to stay away from it, but I was just playing around with it today lol


    Could I upgrade to 67 right now, and how much more would it cost me?

    You can go to your account, click upgrade, select Y67 for $99, enter coupon code Swede2015 and it will drop it to $84.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:12 pm









    You can go to your account, click upgrade, select Y67 for $99, enter coupon code Swede2015 and it will drop it to $84.
    Cool, I will wait for my results then since it's only few more dollars without the coupon anyway.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:27 pm

    Ok I deleted your post by mistake, sorry! Anyway, here is how they show:




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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:56 pm

    Admin wrote:Ok I deleted your post by mistake, sorry! Anyway, here is how they show:





    It's all good. My bad, this step is just to check the values and mutations of YSNPs, and it will not list the calls. The second image u linked is the correct way to do it, and I see no result for L23, so no call, but if rs9786142 (L49) is A like you said earlier, then all uu know is you are M269+ and L23 either positive or negative through 23andme. And I see L23 is not blue (unclickable), so yea no call for that.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:04 pm

    Trojet wrote:


    It's all good. My bad, this step is just to check the values and mutations of YSNPs, and it will not list the calls. The second image u linked is the correct way to do it, and I see no result for L23, so no call, but if rs9786142 (L49) is A like you said earlier, then all u is you are M269+ and L23 either positive or negative through 23andme.
    Yeah 23andme seems like it's hit and miss on regards to predicting L23. I was looking at that turkish guy Icbreaker results at anthrogenica and 23andme basically had the same results for him as for me. And he did test negative for L23 at ftdna too, after he did yfull he was placed as M269+ PF7562+. Can't remember now, how far did the Gashi fella test and in what cluster was he placed on?


    Never-mind, you told me that in this thread lol. He is the one that Icbreaker is in the same project with, and I guess Gashi tested PF7563+ too which Icebreader is negative on?
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:09 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:


    It's all good. My bad, this step is just to check the values and mutations of YSNPs, and it will not list the calls. The second image u linked is the correct way to do it, and I see no result for L23, so no call, but if rs9786142 (L49) is A like you said earlier, then all u is you are M269+ and L23 either positive or negative through 23andme.
    Yeah 23andme seems like it's hit and miss on regards to predicting L23. I was looking at that turkish guy Icbreaker results at anthrogenica and 23andme basically had the same results for him as for me. And he did test negative for L23 and ftdna too, after he did yfull he was placed as M269+ PF7562+. Can't remember now, how far did the Gashi fella test and in what cluster was he placed on?
    That's where Gashi belongs too, and I see that clade is not explored very good, too little samples so far, TMRCA 5000 ybp:
    www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:16 pm

    Trojet wrote:

    That's where Gashi belongs too, and I see that clade is not explored very good, too little samples so far, TMRCA 5000 ybp:
    www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/
    If that is the case, I mean if I fall under the same scenario, or if I can see that I might be similar to Gashi I will do yfull right away without upgrading to 67. This way I can solve it right away and the tree will have more samples lol
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:21 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:

    That's where Gashi belongs too, and I see that clade is not explored very good, too little samples so far, TMRCA 5000 ybp:
    www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/
    If that is the case, I mean if I fall under the same scenario, or if I can see that I might be similar to Gashi I will do yfull right away without upgrading to 67. This way I can solve it right away and the tree will have more samples lol

    R1b admins will be pretty happy if you do BigY and Yfull lol, but you gotta see whether u belong into that clade which seems like its pretty old and not bery well explored or L23+
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:35 pm

    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:

    That's where Gashi belongs too, and I see that clade is not explored very good, too little samples so far, TMRCA 5000 ybp:
    www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/
    If that is the case, I mean if I fall under the same scenario, or if I can see that I might be similar to Gashi I will do yfull right away without upgrading to 67. This way I can solve it right away and the tree will have more samples lol

    R1b admins will be pretty happy if you do BigY and Yfull lol, but you gotta see whether u belong into that clade which seems like its pretty old and not bery well explored or L23+


    OK, I thought yfull is the same thing as bigy lol. What's the difference?
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:44 pm

    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:
    Admin wrote:
    Trojet wrote:

    That's where Gashi belongs too, and I see that clade is not explored very good, too little samples so far, TMRCA 5000 ybp:
    www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7562/
    If that is the case, I mean if I fall under the same scenario, or if I can see that I might be similar to Gashi I will do yfull right away without upgrading to 67. This way I can solve it right away and the tree will have more samples lol

    R1b admins will be pretty happy if you do BigY and Yfull lol, but you gotta see whether u belong into that clade which seems like its pretty old and not bery well explored or L23+


    OK,  I thought yfull is the same thing as bigy  lol. What's the difference?

    BigY is the actual test from FTDNA (around $500 pretty expensive for now) that tests for known SNPs as well as gives private undiscovered SNPs. YFULL is used for interpreting raw results from next generation tests such as BigY and places them in their tree, also will extract over 100 strs from the BigY all for $49.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:04 pm

    Eventually tests like BigY will go down in price. I don't think that price is worth for now. I will have to do that test eventually to discover SNPs, since im stuck at J2b2-Z1296* but too expensive now.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Admin on Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:48 pm

    Trojet wrote:BigY is the actual test from FTDNA (around $500 pretty expensive for now) that tests for known SNPs as well as gives private undiscovered SNPs. YFULL is used for interpreting raw results from next generation tests such as BigY and places them in their tree, also will extract over 100 strs from the BigY all for $49.
    I looked into it and it's quite nice and not too expensive either, so worth it after you absorb the bigY price. I won't do it right away, but probably by the end of the year. I actually went ahead and upgraded to YDNA67. I was reading the R1b project at ftdna and the mods were saying 67 is minimal for them to be able to place you anywhere correctly, so I just went ahead and did it.
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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

    Post by Trojet on Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:05 pm

    Admin wrote:
    I looked into it and it's quite nice and not too expensive either, so worth it after you absorb the bigY price. I won't do it right away, but probably by the end of the year. I actually went ahead and upgraded to YDNA67. I was reading the R1b project at ftdna and the mods were saying 67 is minimal for them to be able to place you anywhere correctly, so I just went ahead and did it.

    That's good. More markers is always better. It's just that for certain haplogroups 37 might be good enough with the option to upgrade if needed. But yea I too did see that R1b mods recommend 67 markers for R1b haplogroup.

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    Re: Haplogroup R1b

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      Current date/time is Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:22 am